Get Unruly

The Cost of Shrinking: A Mother-Daughter Conversation About Taking Up Space

• Kim Bolourtchi • Season 5 • Episode 6

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She’s been on the mic with me before — but never quite like this.

In this powerful return episode, I sit down with my daughter, Samantha, for a raw, unscripted conversation about something we’ve both lived: the pressure to shrink.

To dim our light.
 To tone it down.
 To make ourselves smaller — so other people feel more comfortable.

We talk about what that’s looked like in our lives, how it shows up differently across generations, and what it actually costs — in confidence, creativity, connection.

And then we talk about what happens when we finally stop.

This isn’t just about speaking up.
 It’s about taking up space. In rooms, in relationships, in the world.

If you’ve ever held back who you really are — this episode will hit home.

Press play. Then ask yourself: Where are you still shrinking? And what if you didn’t?

Connect:
kim@kimbolourtchi.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberly-bolourtchi/

Learn more:
www.kimbolourtchi.com

Kim Bolourtchi:

Welcome back to Get Unruly. Today's episode is personal. I talk a lot about what it means to lead boldly, to stop performing, stop hiding and stop editing ourselves just to fit in. But this isn't just a leadership problem, it's actually a human one, and today I brought someone who's watched me wrestle with this and who's learning to navigate it in her own way. My daughter, Samantha, is here, and we're going to talk about the ways we both edited ourselves and what happens when we finally stop. Let's get into it. Sam, I'm really excited about this conversation. I'm so excited you're here today.

Samantha Bolourtchi:

I'm so excited to be here. This is good one. So you've grown

Kim Bolourtchi:

up watching me shift in my own voice, especially over the past few years. But I also know that you've had your own experience with feeling like you had to shrink or be palatable. Let's talk about that. And I know I'm putting you on the spot, because I don't script any of my episodes. Can you think of a time when you felt like you had to make yourself smaller than you actually are to fit in? Yeah,

Samantha Bolourtchi:

absolutely. My first example when I was in high school. I had moved out of the district and I was starting cross country at another high school, it was something to try and get involved, meet new people. I didn't have any ties to the community the way that the feeder Middle School had. I got really good at cross country really quickly. I put my heart and soul into it. It's just part of who I am. And as a result, it seemed to isolate me. I thought that the better I got and the better our team got, the more close we would get. And instead, it had the opposite effect. When people would hear my name over the loudspeaker, there'd be groans, it would make me literally shrink in my seat. And it got to the point where I didn't feel like I wanted to bring any attention to any accolades of the Cross Country department at all, which is a shame, because it's a sport that's not very popular, and we were doing very well that season, but that was difficult, yeah, and

Kim Bolourtchi:

I imagine it not just to the Cross Country department, but you probably didn't want to bring any attention to yourself.

Samantha Bolourtchi:

No, not at all. I remember sitting in class, I knew what was coming. After a good weekend, I won the Clayton Invitational one year. It was something I'd always wanted to do. I was so excited to like, rep the brand of my high school, and I felt very proud of that accomplishment, and nobody else seemed to share that with me. And that was difficult, because I thought maybe I had a backward mindset. So I toned everything down, I pretty much turned it all off, and I kind of put my head down. And that was that, well,

Kim Bolourtchi:

thank you for sharing that. Of course, that story, I feel like every one of us has a story like that in some way, where we were doing something that really, we could be really proud of, and the reaction from other people is the opposite of what you'd expect. It's negative in a way that you can't anticipate, and it's very, very jarring. So now you're 24 you're a graduate student at Columbia. You've grown up a lot since that time. And that was what like 15 year old, 16 year old. You Yes. So what does 24 year old you see when you look back at that situation and you remember how you shrunk?

Samantha Bolourtchi:

I think it's a beautiful reflection insofar as to recognize that I'm quite a people pleaser, and I don't necessarily think that needs to be a bad thing, but I really inherently took hold of the reactions of my peers and the people around me and saw that as a sign that I was doing something wrong, whereas now I'm 24 and I regularly walk through the streets of Manhattan with, excuse my French, but don't really give a fuck. Type of mentality, even as a people pleaser, you can still very much sit in who you want to be and be proud of the accomplishments you've had without being overreaching, and still carry humility without also looking at other people for affirmation. I think

Kim Bolourtchi:

that's such a good realization. And I will say this, I think a lot of us have a tendency to be people pleasing. And how you define that can be different. Absolutely like I would never have said I was a people pleaser, right? Nor have I, however, if I'm being honest and I look back to my early career, I'm not sure I can separate the idea of being a people pleaser from somebody who wanted everybody's respect and approval, right, right? And so we think of people pleasing as like, Oh, I'm going to do everything to make everybody comfortable and feel good in one situation, I'll make myself small if it makes you feel better about yourself, but it can also be where I want you to like me and respect me and think highly of me. So I'm going to be the version of myself I need to be in any situation so that I get that reaction from you, and that is a version of people pleasing, and I very much was guilty of that. That in my career, and, like, not even just early in my career, I think that's something I still struggle with sometimes. You know, when I started speaking and got advice about who I needed to be to do well in professional speaking, you know, even then I had that moment again, of like, oh, who do I need to be on stage? Right? And I don't think we talk about this enough, and how hard it is to absorb all the information we get about who we have to be and the impact it has on us, and the tendency to shrink 100%

Samantha Bolourtchi:

but I think there's a fine line between, you know, seeking out a positive amount of respect from your colleagues. I don't think that's abnormal. I think that that's very much normal and a part of our human condition, and at the same time, not backpedaling onto yourself so that that respect outweighs your personal respect, and it's something I've had to deal with a lot in in grad school and in the professional community. Also, I think you make a good point. Well,

Kim Bolourtchi:

I fundamentally believe that when we are being ourself, truly ourselves, and not shrinking at all, but in fact, shining like like, being our biggest, biggest self, that that is when we will command the respect that we deserve and desire from the people who are meant to see us, respect us, be drawn to us. I think when we're morphing ourself into some other version, we might get quote, respect or attention from people, but we're not being real. So it's a watered down version, right? And that never feels good. I was just gonna

Samantha Bolourtchi:

say it doesn't feel good at all. I mean, I'm sitting here thankful as can be studying at an Ivy League, one of the ivy leagues in the United States, and the imposter syndrome is real. And then you think about what kind of respect Do you want to receive from your colleagues and your professors and your peers? And it can be really difficult. I've had multiple conversations with my mom after class, you

Kim Bolourtchi:

mean me, yes,

Samantha Bolourtchi:

about how shitty it feels to put yourself in a position where you feel like you need to check the accolades because everyone around you is doing it, or, you know, trying to catch up when you're in your own space, and you should just hold your power and just be you don't try to shape yourself for for what feels good to other people, right? And

Kim Bolourtchi:

I think it's hard, right, because our institutions are built around a lot of messages that tell you, this is what is successful and this is what is admirable. And so people spend all of this time trying to be that version, and often at the expense of yourself, absolutely but it doesn't feel good when you try to be

Samantha Bolourtchi:

someone else. No, definitely not. Or to encourage others to to kind of put on a face for the betterment of others. You know, I just don't think that that is

Kim Bolourtchi:

helpful. Yeah, I remember when I was practicing law, there was this woman that I worked with, and everyone loved her. She was so adorable, and she had this southern accent, and people ate out of her palm. They loved her, and she just would have this way about her that was so Southern and sweet and, you know, y'all and so I decided, and I did not get the same reaction from people, right? I'm very direct. I'm very, you know, what you see is what you get. But I watched her have this influence over people, and I was like, I need to be more like her. She's really got this figured out. So for a week, I adopted a southern accent. This is so embarrassing, but I did, and I like, walked around trying to be much softer and sweeter and y'all and, and, oh my god, it so did not work. It was hilarious, right? But I actually believed that if I were more like her, that people would like me better, because I couldn't see that people liked me. For me, I just kept seeing the way other people were being responded to, and it always seemed better than what I had, right? And I think we do this all the time, absolutely, because I can look at you and see your your superpowers are nothing like that of your colleagues and classmates, and yet it's difficult for you to see,

Samantha Bolourtchi:

yeah, oh my gosh. We go back and forth about this once a day, at least. It's so incredibly hard to see the strengths you bring to the table. It's so much easier to see weaknesses. I'm the number one self sabotager. I see all the things that I could be doing better, and rarely ever recognize the things that are actually needed and very much there, and I'm thankful to have a support system that shows me that it's hard, though it's extremely

Kim Bolourtchi:

hard, because even with a support system, which I believe you've had, and you can correct me absolutely, the messages are so strong from the outside world, and they start so Early in our lives, that even with really good support, it's difficult to unwire those Absolutely it is, and I think that's an important thing for people listening to understand this isn't something you think your way out of with one thought, right? Or one great conversation, like a lot of people, this is

Samantha Bolourtchi:

why she brings the philosophers to the table. What you said, it's not just one thing. It's not just one thought.

Kim Bolourtchi:

Like crazy, but, but it's, you know, even as a as a parent, we want to tell our kids, right? Like I want to tell you, you're so amazing, you're so incredible, you have all these gifts. Why can't you see yourself the way I see you, and I've spent your whole life trying to empower you to see yourself that way, but ultimately, you have to see yourself that way, I can't convince you, right? And I'm saying this because there's so many parents out there listening who want their kids right to see themselves through the lens the parents see them through. And it's not possible to do that other than to continue making the suggestion. Ultimately, we each have to figure out how to unwire the conditioning from wherever it comes, right, right? So as you sit here and you think about it has shrinking ever served you?

Samantha Bolourtchi:

I don't think it has. I've really thought about this, because there have been a lot of moments in my life where I feel like I've taken a back seat. And I actually wrote about this in a graduate class I took where we had to do self evaluations, and what did we take out of the class, who we were as a student, and I realized I shrunk at the beginning of the class. And this happened three months ago, four months ago. I mean, this is as recent as it gets, and it's not something I would normally ever do. I'm very talkative. I'm very outgoing in class. I love to facilitate discussion, and I took a back seat for like, four weeks of the semester, which is something I never do. I shrunk immediately. I think one I just there are a bunch of different factors at play, but I realized that, looking back at the class, it didn't serve me at all. I didn't need to take such a back seat and listen. I think there's a way that we can incorporate all the different things that we want to get out of something while still being respectful in whatever manner it is, without having to

Kim Bolourtchi:

shrink. Why did you shrink? Like, if you're being really honest, yeah,

Samantha Bolourtchi:

no, no, really honestly, it's a multi faceted question, because I think there's such a difference of educational hierarchy and privilege and access.

Kim Bolourtchi:

Just why you personally shrunk? Yeah, no, I personally shrunk

Samantha Bolourtchi:

because of that. I was sitting in a class as a white presenting woman with 10 other students who have historically excluded backgrounds, have immigrant families who've grown up with experiences that I will never understand and have never had the platform to share them, and so it came from a place of respect that I shrunk, but I'm looking back now, and I didn't necessarily need to, to still give that space to my fellow colleagues, and it was I was appreciative to realize that at the end, and I'm thankful to have the awareness of something like that, and I didn't necessarily need to shrink in that

Kim Bolourtchi:

moment. And so, just to give some context, this was a diversity kind of class, sort of,

Samantha Bolourtchi:

yeah, it was the critical pedagogy of violent curriculum. It's a fully loaded class. It's very difficult. It was a PhD class. I was a little bird swimming upstream in this one, but I walked away learning more than I think I ever have out of the class. So I'm so thankful to my colleagues and my

Kim Bolourtchi:

professor. I love that point, actually that and it's such a good example, right? Because you you didn't shrink because you felt like you needed to shrink yourself to not be so big. You shrunk to give space, right? You shrunk to be respectful, right? And I think it's a really interesting point, because a lot of times when we think about shrinking, we shrink because we don't feel like we belong. We shrink because we don't feel like we're good enough. We shrink because we don't want to be seen, right? I mean, I can tell you, I have struggled with this thought of I want to be seen, but I also don't want to be seen in those moments when I feel vulnerable. And I think a lot of us shrink because of that, but I love this idea of shrinking out of respect, because there's that too. I mean, there's so many reasons why we choose to make ourselves small rather than show up with the full breadth of who we are, and even in that, you know, when it is so well intended, it still didn't serve you, no, not

Samantha Bolourtchi:

necessarily, just because then it made me realize, like, who am I? And that reflection kind of made me realize like, well, am I downplaying my integrity of my own humanness and who I am as a result of my respect, because I don't think that needs to happen either. I think I can still show up and be me and give that respect. And this is just one example. It was just the first that came to mind while I was sitting here, I guess, to say, like the fine line, there's two sides to everything, and people pleasing and shrinking. Yeah, I think if we recognize how small we shrink for others and in different circumstances, will show us the difference between people pleasing and shrinking for the wrong reasons, maybe versus maybe shrinking for the right ones.

Kim Bolourtchi:

Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure there is a right reason to shrink. Yeah, I'm gonna challenge you on. That

Samantha Bolourtchi:

when I use shrink, I guess I will say that I don't necessarily mean that our body language and our personal identity needs to become smaller. I think I use shrink in an effort to pull attention to the things that are bigger around us, and they're actually so small as it already is, I don't think we need to crawl inward so much is just to recognize that we have the innate inherent ability as human beings to stretch super big and expand our mind super wide, or kind of fold onto ourselves and like self sabotage.

Kim Bolourtchi:

But you just said to shrink for the right reasons? Yeah. So I want to, I want to challenge you. Is there a right reason to shrink?

Samantha Bolourtchi:

I think I just gave you one at the beginning of my class. I mean, it didn't necessarily serve me for four weeks to take a back seat, but I would do it again. You would. I would absolutely because I think creating the space to recognize that I inherently did shrink myself a little bit to create this space, but

Kim Bolourtchi:

you just said you didn't need to,

Samantha Bolourtchi:

maybe not for myself, if we're talking about me, but for the people around me. I felt like I did, and you'd have to ask them. But there's two sides. I'm not just thinking about me when I shrink, same with people pleasing. I'm thinking about me like, oh, fuck, I gotta make myself smaller. But I'm also thinking about the effect of what that's gonna do for my environment? Yeah,

Kim Bolourtchi:

and see, this is, I guess we, we disagree on this point, which is totally healthy. And I, I would say that shrinking, even when you think you're shrinking for the benefit of someone else, actually never serves anyone. Because we live in an abundant world where there's space for everyone, and the idea that there's only so much oxygen in a room, or there's only so much space, is sort of a scarcity mindset, right? And so it's like, well, if, if I take up too much space, then there isn't space for you. If I come in here, none. I understand where you're coming from. And like, like, like you don't want to come in and and talk a whole lot or, you know, but, but there's a difference between shrinking yourself to be invisible or to not be seen, and just using restraint to be a good listener or to be thoughtful. But like, you can still be a great listener and be thoughtful in your full presence to bring all of who you are to every situation, right? And so I think, at least from my perspective, I feel like my advice would be to never, ever shrink, unless you are in bodily harm and you need to shrink because your life is in danger, and you literally need to be invisible because you're about to be, you know, hurt, you know, like, like, that kind of situation. But I think that, I think that this is what's so dangerous about the idea of of and why we shrink. It's like, well, if I'm too big, if I take and this, this is, I'm passionate about this, because this is a message I got as a little girl, Kim, you're too much. You girl, you talk too much. You take up too much space, right? You are way more than we can handle. Like, just, can you be quiet and sit down and let someone else talk for a while? And so I was, like, always thinking, do I want too much? Do I take up too much room? Do I talk too much? Do I, you know, am I too much? And the reality is, I'm not. I just might be too much for them, right? I might be too much for you know, you want less. Go find less, sure. Um, and so I think that there's space for everybody to be as big as they are.

Samantha Bolourtchi:

I agree. I don't disagree at all. I don't, I don't necessarily think that we need to shrink. The Phyllis, the philosopher and me very much, argues. The difference, which is, I would almost argue we need to go through a shrinking process to actually see why we don't need it and why it hurts us, absolutely. And so I guess my counter to you is, let's have it. Oh, yeah, sit here and do this all day. I think my counter to you is is basically just that point is, I don't necessarily preach it, and I wouldn't say that that needs to happen. I think that we all can show there's, like you said, oxygen in a room. I agree that there's more than enough oxygen for all human beings of all different walks and purposes. I think my perspective was, you're right, it didn't serve Me, me, and I was also thinking, as a people pleaser, about what it would do for my environment. And so that did factor into my decision to shrink, and that's correct when I say I'd go back and do it again, the same way I would, but with a different mindset. After having this conversation, I think going back, if I did it again, I would look at it as kind of the argument I just made, which is, you need to do it to see it. And I'm not going to walk off this phone call and say, everybody needs to shrink right now so you can see the bigger picture. Because that's that's very Socratic of me, and I'm not going to do that. I do agree with you. I don't think we need to shrink. I do believe we can show up it. Exactly the way that we are and still carry that level of respect and sensibility and acknowledgement and kindness, yeah? And it's definitely something we need to work toward more,

Kim Bolourtchi:

yeah. And you know, I love the point that you just made, that we do need to go through it, and I think it's an important thing to recognize, right? Because I'm talking about it from a place of I've done it. I've shrunk myself, you know, many, many times throughout my life, to fit in, to be acceptable, to be palatable, to be right, you know, to not be too big. And it's only having done that so many times that I've come out on the other side, realizing that I'm at my best and, by the way, in the most service to everyone around me and everything that I do when I'm at my biggest best self, right, like there's nobody who benefits ever right from me being anything other than my biggest me,

Samantha Bolourtchi:

absolutely, and I just want to preface to I'm in full agreement with that as your daughter and fellow human being who lives under the same roof, I don't want to preface that in any way of the Socratic format of having to go through it to see it prompts you to think in a way that that behavior is somehow justified, that, like we need to put ourselves through that for any reason, or we are put through that, and it's justified. It's not. Nobody should ever be told to do something a certain way. But it's life, and it is life. It is life 100%

Kim Bolourtchi:

and it's a reality that people do feel it, because it's our conditioning.

Samantha Bolourtchi:

Absolutely it is. Shit happens, fair enough. Shit doesn't like you know what? That's true,

Kim Bolourtchi:

you know absolutely. And I don't think, I don't think we beat ourselves up for it, but I think we can make a different choice and and so, um,

Samantha Bolourtchi:

one of the questions I have before we wrap up is, what helps us unedit, what helps us not be small, what helps us be as big as we can be? I mean, what are some things that help you? Oh, my gosh. As a grad student, like I said at where I am specifically, I think one of the biggest things is not walking through my day to day in a mode, a mindset of like, I need to impress, my need to be a certain way. New York is unforgiving as it is, and I learned that quickly. And I think that you can be very much who you are without having to check boxes, I learned that quickly that I'm inherently loved for who I am, genuinely through and through, not because of my accolades or not because what I'm doing on the weekend or how I spend my free time, but who I am when I show up, and how friendly I am and just just how thankful I am to be here and to be human and to celebrate I don't know, the little things I love that

Kim Bolourtchi:

so much spread it around. Yeah, I think that's really, really beautiful. Thanks. I appreciate that. Yeah, I think another thing I would add to that is just recognizing that you have nothing to prove ever to anyone, right? And that's something that I've told myself over and over, is that I actually am inherently worthy just by being me? Yeah, you are. And I have nothing to prove.

Samantha Bolourtchi:

You don't right? And I love that mindset. I think we get caught sometimes in the fallacy of like, Oh, if I don't have goals, if I don't have something to prove, then what's my purpose? And I think you're looking at your purpose when you look in the mirror. It's a total gift to be here. Enjoy it. I don't think that you need to consistently be driven by something to get there. You'll get there. Yeah, you may just not see it yet. I love it, amazing. Thank you so much for having me. I really loved this conversation, likewise, and

Kim Bolourtchi:

so proud of you and I love that we can disagree

Samantha Bolourtchi:

Absolutely. I welcome, I very much welcome it as a philosopher in higher ed at the moment, dipping my foot in all facets of human interaction. I'm very much. I'm on the I'm ready.

Kim Bolourtchi:

I'm gonna challenge you as you go into your next next semester. Not I mean, I know you just finished, so you're not thinking about your next semester, but when you do, boy am I. I want to challenge you to not ever make yourself small for anyone else's benefit. Ever heard that? What do you think?

Samantha Bolourtchi:

Accept? I heartily accept.

Kim Bolourtchi:

I love it. Amazing. Thanks, Samma I appreciate it. Thank you all for being with us today. You've been listening to get unruly. Please send your thoughts, your questions. I'd love to hear from you, and I'll see you next time. This is kimberlotchi, your host. I am so grateful to each of you for being here. If you loved this episode and you think someone else needs to hear it, please pass it on. Also, if you have any questions or comments or anything you want to chat about, please send me an email at kim@kimbolourtchi.com, or just reach out to me and connect on LinkedIn. I am genuinely interested in having conversations, answering questions and just connecting. So don't hesitate. Great if that feels like something you'd love to do. And last, feel free to leave us a review or pop a note or a text into the podcast itself. I'm pretty sure the technology lets me get those messages, but I would love to hear from you in any way that works until next time. Stay unruly friends. You.